Two off_time for One region/key?

Discussion on the SFZ implementation and opcodes available in the ARIA engine.

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kinwie
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby kinwie » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:08 am

Is there a way to set up thing like this :

- A region or key, off by itself, use off_time 1
- When it off_by other key, use off_time 2

davidv
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Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby davidv » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:14 am

kinwie wrote:Is there a way to set up thing like this :

- A region or key, off by itself, use off_time 1
- When it off_by other key, use off_time 2


I guess it would be best if you explained exactly what you want to accomplish?
Thanks
David Viens,
Plogue Art et Technologie Inc. Montreal.
http://www.plogue.com

kinwie
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby kinwie » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:50 am

Well, I hope this will make sense to you

I'm thinking to simulate the real condition of the percussion instrument being played.
Good drum/percussion library always have their samples sampled one-hit in full-length,
eg. Cymbal sample can reach 8-20 seconds long.
In standard programming, when they played in one-shot mode, every hit will playback the whole samples too.
But I think in real condition, the previous hit should be decaying shorter.

For example, I know that can be set easily like this :

<region>
sample=crash.wav
loop_mode=one_shot
key=49
polyphony=1
group=1
off_by=2
off_mode=time
off_time=3

Every previous hit will decay in 3 seconds.
But when that region have a choke/mute, by other key :

<region>
sample=*silence
key=60
group=2

When the key 60 play, I need the off_time changed to 0.5 seconds.

So is there a way to do it or other way to achive similar result?

pljones
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby pljones » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:54 pm

You're after two different "release times" for the same triggered region, which kind of doesn't make sense -- the engine's got to know which one to pick and you're not telling it until after the event that triggers the region has gone past. It would have to go back into the past and change the outcome...

You've three paths:
- region triggered and elapses in full (8 to 20 seconds)
- region triggered, then triggered again (cut the first region short when the second trigger comes in but with a 3 second release)
- region triggered, then a second region triggered (cut the first region short when the second trigger comes in but with a 0.5 second release)

I think the best you can get is two different outcomes and I'm not even certain of that...

kinwie
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby kinwie » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:28 pm

Yeah, the first two should be working fine.
The third one maybe not yet achievable for now.

i know the off_time is tied to the group ID, so maybe giving 2nd group opcode can do the trick, something like :

<region>
sample=crash.wav
loop_mode=one_shot
key=49
polyphony=1
group=1
off_mode=time
off_time=3
group2=2
off_by2=3
polyphony2=1
off_mode2=time
off_time2=0.5

<region>
sample=*silence
key=60
group2=3

asking too much? :D

kinwie
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby kinwie » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:41 am

The reason I ask about this is because I've encounter too ringing ride cymbals in eight, too boomy double kick pedal, etc.
I supposed other perc. instrument will also sounds too ringing, like a manually-made roll cymbals, roll timpani, etc if the samples are long.

Limiting the polyphony to 1 with proper off_time setup seems a good way to reduce that.

Wondering, Jones do you experience the same thing?

And David, is there any 'secret' opcode available at this moment to handle self-cut release time that not tied to off_by other key's time?

Will be very appreciate for an answer,
Thanks...

pljones
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby pljones » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:50 pm

What I've done in the past looks something like this:

Code: Select all

<global> loop_mode=one_shot off_mode=normal
<control> octave_offset=0 default_path=..\Samples\Close Mics\
<master> ampeg_release=0.5
<group> key=042 lovel=001 hivel=021 locc4=116 hicc4=127 group=6 off_by=96 polyphony=18
<region> seq_length=6 seq_position=1 sample=AD30_CmHihatCvgRR1_TT_1_21.wav

Because loop_mode is one_shot and off_mode is reset to normal, the ampeg_release is triggered when the region is muted. So like I say, you can get two outcomes -- a full length sample or a curtailed sample. For hi-hat I only mute if a less open region is played and for other I cymbals only mute if choked - otherwise I let them ring out. I've not found too much problem. For things like ride rolls, though, it's not just release time you need to worry about - the attack sound is very different if the cymbal is still vibrating heavily, so it's hard to do without lots of work. (Well, actually saying that, I've never tried it: with a legato mode it could be fairly easy but I don't know if you can have legato with one_shot.)

kinwie
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby kinwie » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:56 pm

What you've done for the AD stuff should be great.
But putting polyphony of 8 to 16 still sounded too ringy to me :)

I always think that drum and percussion is a mono instruments, that's why I tried to set it up to 1 poly.
Without a choke key, with that setting I wrote above works just fine for me at the current condition of sforzando.
Every previous hits will be shortened but the last hit will be always played full-length.

For the hihats, I've already found my solution that all hihat articulation/key can be muted by each other. I call it Hihat Cross-Muting. I'm too lazy to write it down here, but if anyone interested, the setup can be seen in the DrumGizmo DRSKit sfz that I made, here's the link :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aoz3xj28s22bt ... Z.rar?dl=0

Well, I saw a "note_selfmask" opcode at sfzformat.com but dunno its meaning and what for and it is unrecognized.

pljones
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby pljones » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:29 pm

Mm, I don't like limiting polyphony - it sounds very unnatural to me. When I play a real kit, you don't cut sounds off when you strike again. Yes, the sound is modified - but that's both the existing sound and the new sound. Unless you're going to do some ultra-complex sampling you can't directly capture that. I find it more realistic to have notes overlap - that way the sound of the current note and the new note do interact (albeit not exactly as they naturally would) to result in a different sound.

kinwie
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby kinwie » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:18 am

Yes. I know it will be unnatural, that's why I put a long off_time/release time so the previous hits not muted immediately but overlapping. In the real drumming condition, the sustain of the previous hit always interrupted by the new hit, right?

pljones
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby pljones » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:19 pm

It's not cut dead. Each hit modulates the previous one if it's not rung out to silence. You're adding energy to an already moving resonant surface with another impact. The attack is dulled, the new waveform interacts with the existing waveform. So yes, about the best you can do with samples is use the release phase to mix with the new hit.

kinwie
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby kinwie » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:42 am

Hi Jones,

Just want your opinion, how this sounds, is it natural enough to your ears?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fm45xviesgxxg ... e.mp3?dl=0

It used RockStock and everything is set to polyphony=1.
Kick off_time=1.5, Ride off_time=7, etc...
With a normal (plain) mapping, it was sounded very boomy and ringy
That's why I'm aftering multiple off_time option and need to know if I'm wrong about this.

Thanks!

pljones
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby pljones » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:46 pm

For the musical style it's okay - it's what's called for. Tho it would be nice to have not-so-staccato offs when there isn't a following note.

kinwie
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby kinwie » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:22 am

Thanks for comment, Mr. Jones!
That setting was a temporary testing preset.
We can always set the "self" off_time longer to meet the desire feel, right?
And maybe increase the polyphony to 2.

But the point is, It seems this way makes acoustic percussion instrument much more tighter and sound better naturally because not so much (long) samples overlapping.

Any other people here aware of this?

pljones
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Two off_time for One region/key?

Postby pljones » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:31 am

Heh, not so sure about "naturally". I've heard bands sound very different on live recordings where there's not so much production and the drums are one of the main areas. It's certainly a studio sound you've got and it definitely works. Yes, try with poly 2 and see how different it sounds.


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