CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

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pbattersby
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:59 pm

CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

Postby pbattersby » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:16 am

I've been reading that CC#7 and CC#11 are supposed to be the same, sort of. The idea being that you use CC#7 to set the overall volume for a track and use CC#11 for crescendos and decrescendos. In this way you can use CC#11 for expression and adjust the overall volume with CC#7 without messing up the relative volume changes from CC#11, BUT ... what I think happens somewhere between sfz opcodes and Sforzando, is that CC#11, at best (using gain_cc11=12 for example), can add to the volume set by CC#7 but not reduce it. So, I can't create both a crescendo and decrescendo using CC#11.

Is this a .sfz thing or is this a Sforzando thing or have I misunderstood what I read? Should I be able to configure CC#11 to both increase and decrease the volume set by CC#7? I know I can do this: "gain_cc11=-12" and then CC#11 will reduce the volume but then it can only reduce the volume.
Paul Battersby - http://virtualplaying.com
Composing virtual drums, bass, strings, full orchestra accompaniment
Creator of Virtual Playing Orchestra

eric_telemaque
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

Postby eric_telemaque » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:00 am

Hi,

The CC11 expression is a General midi convention, but it's not automatically applied in sforzando. You can manually implement that in your sfz files, I'd use: amplitude_oncc11=100
Éric Patenaude,
Plogue Art et Technologie Inc. Montreal.
http://www.plogue.com

pbattersby
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:59 pm

Re: CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

Postby pbattersby » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:56 am

That solves my problem, sort of but it can cause sfozrzando to freeze. What I ultimately want to do is have a single controller for volume and cross fade.

When I use

Code: Select all

amplitude_oncc=11

I get the expression control I was hoping for BUT, when I do this:

Code: Select all

amplitude_oncc=11
xfin_locc11=0
xfin_hicc11=127

Sforzando (v1.911), in Reaper (v5.35 - the latest version) freezes.

Here is my full .sfz test file:

Code: Select all

<group>
amplitude_oncc11=100
xfin_locc11=0
xfin_hicc11=127

<region>
sample=testSample1.wav

That was the minimal .sfz file that demonstrates the problem. I also tried it like this (so I would have a proper cross fade), which also causes Sforzando to hang:

Code: Select all

<group>
amplitude_oncc11=100
xfin_locc11=0
xfin_hicc11=127

<region>
sample=testSample1.wav

<group>
amplitude_oncc11=100
xfout_locc11=0
xfout_hicc11=127

<region>
sample=testSample2.wav
Paul Battersby - http://virtualplaying.com
Composing virtual drums, bass, strings, full orchestra accompaniment
Creator of Virtual Playing Orchestra

eric_telemaque
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

Postby eric_telemaque » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:35 pm

pbattersby,

You caught a nasty one! Thank you for that!

We will fix the freeze with the next update. OTOH, you won't be able to use the same CC number for xfade and amplitude.
By design, these parameters cannot be modulated by the same CC. Ever. :(
If you try with the next update, you will get en error message instead of a freeze.
Éric Patenaude,
Plogue Art et Technologie Inc. Montreal.
http://www.plogue.com

pbattersby
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:59 pm

Re: CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

Postby pbattersby » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:52 pm

eric_telemaque wrote:By design, these parameters cannot be modulated by the same CC. Ever. :(

Why by design? It would have been very convenient to be able to adjust volume and timbre with a single controller. I can imagine though that once that decision is made, it could be a major effort to change it.

I can do this without any problem (no freeze, no error):

Code: Select all

gain_cc11=12
xfin_locc11=0
xfin_hicc11=127

... but that gain only adds to the current volume. It doesn't ever subtract. So it seems, what I want to do is just not possible with standard 1.0 or even standard 2.0 opcodes. "amplitude_onccN" is an Aria specific opcode right?
Paul Battersby - http://virtualplaying.com
Composing virtual drums, bass, strings, full orchestra accompaniment
Creator of Virtual Playing Orchestra

eric_telemaque
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

Postby eric_telemaque » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:48 pm

pbattersby wrote:Why by design? It would have been very convenient to be able to adjust volume and timbre with a single controller. I can imagine though that once that decision is made, it could be a major effort to change it.


I won't get in the details here, but yes, it would be nearly impossible to change it now. It would've been convenient, I agree. Other libraries use CC1, or it could even work with velocity (xfin_lovel, xfin_hivel xfout_lovel xfout_hivel).


pbattersby wrote:I can do this without any problem (no freeze, no error):

Code: Select all

gain_cc11=12
xfin_locc11=0
xfin_hicc11=127

... but that gain only adds to the current volume. It doesn't ever subtract. So it seems, what I want to do is just not possible with standard 1.0 or even standard 2.0 opcodes. "amplitude_onccN" is an Aria specific opcode right?


You're right. "amplitude" is in sfz 2.0 spec as a LFO or EG destination only.
Éric Patenaude,
Plogue Art et Technologie Inc. Montreal.
http://www.plogue.com

pbattersby
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:59 pm

Re: CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

Postby pbattersby » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:02 pm

I figured out how to make it work. The solution is not within the .sfz spec but it's a DAW solution.

I do this:

Code: Select all

xfin_locc16=0
xfin_hicc16=127

.. so that CC#16 will control cross fade (CC#16 is one of the general purpose CC numbers)

Then in my DAW, I remap CC#1 (mod wheel) to control CC#7 and I also remap CC#1 to control CC#16.

Now I have a way to use the mod wheel to simultaneously control volume and timbre (cross fade)

Thanks for your help. Confirming what wasn't possible, helped guide me to a working solution.
Paul Battersby - http://virtualplaying.com
Composing virtual drums, bass, strings, full orchestra accompaniment
Creator of Virtual Playing Orchestra

eric_telemaque
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Re: CC#7 and CC#11 not the same?

Postby eric_telemaque » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:36 am

Always glad to help!
You helped us as well, BTW!
Éric Patenaude,
Plogue Art et Technologie Inc. Montreal.
http://www.plogue.com


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