BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

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NTO
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Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:54 am

BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby NTO » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:55 am

I can't find any way to enable an audio input on this patchbay? (I have multiple interfaces on the machine)
EDIT: If I use a Bidule instrument (i.e. 7 drawbar organ) attached there, it does feed the host as desired, but I want to use other hardware.
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seb@plogue
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Re: BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby seb@plogue » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:44 am

You can't have audio devices when your run Bidule as a VST.

Credo
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Re: BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby Credo » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:59 pm

In this post are various experiences with trying different methods to attack the OP's challenge. I've broken each 'approach' down with different colors. I'm on a Windows 10 PC. It's quite old and slow by today's standards (AMD Phenom II X6 @ 3.6ghz, 8gig of DDR2 @ 800mhz but very tight timing), but it still gets the job done...

One round about way (but rock solid stable) to get this effect is to first set up your DAW to get audio from all of the relative ports needed on all of your devices. If you're trying to use multiple audio cards/devices, one can use ASIO4All on a Windows PC to aggregate everything into one ASIO driver. On a Mac you don't need a special driver to aggregate audio devices, instead you'd just set it up. Note that ASIO4ALL has no way of locking the clocks of all your audio devices in sync. If you don't have audio devices that can be synced to the same clock somehow (word-clock, spdif, or some other protocol), this can be a problem if you're trying to use multiple 'outputs' from different devices. For bringing in multiple 'inputs' off different audio devices for independent instruments/vocals that don't have to be perfectly in sync with the system, I personally find it works fine for most things (I.E. Pulling in a USB mic, or patching stuff from my motherboard's spdif input to work along with my main audio card).

So, using whatever tools you need to get all of your relevant audio device inputs into the DAW, establish the inputs natively in your Main Host DAW. Next, load Bidule as a mixer insert for the inputs that carry the audio streams you want. Now you have the desired audio stream coming into an instance of Bidule. If you need an assortment of audio streams from different sources, look into using your DAW's 'channel grouping' features, perhaps with quadrophonic or surround sound panners so you can divert things over multiple ports in one of the multi-port versions of the Bidule VST (commonly used for various side-chaining setups with older VST 2.x plugins). The next catch is how to get MIDI streams into this Bidule Instance. I'm lucky because CuBase allows me to send MIDI to Bidule Instances loaded into Inserts, so I'm good to go!

In the layout below I've got an external Roland Fantom XR hooked into my main sound-card. I've set up CuBase to recognize the inputs and loaded it up into my instrument rack, so it's now on the Mixing desk. Next, I've elected to route this into a Group fader, which is set to a 6 channel surround sound configuration (even though I'm just mixing in stereo). Next, I've loaded an instance of the 32-output Bidule into a VST effect slot for the group. Since Bidule only found 6 valid inputs/outputs, it dropped all the others on his own.

By going this route I get SIX audio streams coming into this one Bidule instance to work with. Whatever instruments or plugins I load into my DAW, if I send them to this group, I can control which of the 6 ports the signal goes through by panning the instrument on its own fader. So, one can isolate single instruments, or send elaborate mixes into Bidule this way. This tactic also comes in handy if you want to 'side chain' older plugins with a little more ease and control than one would get without Bidule in the mix. It's also possible to route just the aux sends into the group, and keep an instrument's main output routed elsewhere, or vice verse. So, in short, many DAW's out there should have the goods required to get streams in and out of Bidule without resorting to hacks that attempt to pull in streams from sources the DAW doesn't know about and isn't in control over.

Image

Some DAWs do not have a way to route MIDI into or out of the Bidule instances loaded in insert slots of your DAW, but you can use something like loopMIDI (Or a virtual port on Macs) to route MIDI in and out of the insert version of a Bidule Instance...or you could do it over OSC from some other Bidule instance running as a VSTi.


The easiest way to make this happen is probably WDM2VST. The demo works great, but sadly I can't get any response from O Deus Audio to register the thing :( I'm all set to buy ASIO Link and WDM2VST and can't get through....

Maybe someday we can get WDM or MME into VST/i Bidule instances natively? It seems to me that MME at least should be doable since that is more like streaming a wave file through a pipeline? That could really come in handy for situations like this and more.

Another option is reaStream.
You can most likely host both transmitting and receiving variants of this plugin in the same DAW and use it to route audio to places that otherwise don't allow it. I.E. Load a transmitting reaStream into the VST effect chain of a mixer channel on the DAW, and load the receiving version in your VSTi Bidule instance.

Another thing that might work is to have a separate stand alone instance of Bidule running first with your desired audio interface loaded, then launch your DAW (Without ReWire or anything of that sort enabled). Inside the stand alone instance of Bidule you could set up reaStream to broadcast. In your VST version of Bidule you'd also run reaStream but have it set to receive. Depending on your system it might introduce too much latency to be workable, but it's worth a try. I've had some success with this on my ancient system with just a single stereo pair being reaStreamed...beyond that there's too much latency, but it still might be worth a try on your particular rig.

Image

I have found one hack that makes it possible to bring an input straight from an ASIO device into VST/i Bidule Instances inside other hosts on my Windows 10 rig, but it breaks all the rules and it's not going to be stable on all systems. I have to be really careful setting it up too or it can throw quite a load of very loud noise through my amp(s). None the less, here it is: VST ASIO Plugin

Below you can see me using it with Sibelius to get my Fantom XR audio from a second sound card routed through the Sibelius Mixer. That allows me to process the XR's output with the VST effect plugins I have loaded into Sibelius (Reverbs, Chorus, EQ, and Multi-band Compression).

Image

The VST ASIO plugin is 32bit only, and all of my DAWs are 64bit and don't do internal bridging, so I also have to run it through jBridge, inside Bidule. I also find that I really need to use ASIO4ALL or Jack2 as the driver in this plugin and disable everything but the specific device inputs I want, otherwise I don't get any control over which input it's going to grab. I've used it quite a bit in Sibelius and Finale to bring audio from my Fantom XR into the internal mixing matrix of the host so I can then mix it in with my main reverbs and such that live in VST inserts. The catch is that I MUST be careful NOT to load and initiate the VST ASIO plugin until AFTER the Plogue engine has started and loaded a Bidule instance. If I let the VST ASIO plugin save as part of the default FXB setup in any of these hosts, it makes an awful racket (and really it's really loud) when loading Bidule.

In cases where I want to merge singals from different outputs into a single stereo pair for this VST ASIO plugin I personally use a little utility called Jack2 in place of, or in combination with ASIO4ALL.

My proceedure is:
1. Load a Bidule instance that has a dummy where I want my VST ASIO plugin to go.
2. Replace the dummy with the VST ASIO plugin, then double click the bidule for it.
3. Once VST ASIO opens in a jBridged side-host, set it up to use ASIO4ALL, which is set to disable all but the single set of stereo inputs I want to use.

As long as I make sure it's done in that order, things usually work (without the awful speaker and ear drum crushing sounds) and stay stable on my particular system.

So, if you Experiment with the VST ASIO plugin....be very careful...turn your master way down and MUTE and turn the mixer channel that it's living in really low until you've set it up. When you unmute it bring the levels up gradually. If it works and stays stable for any length of time consider yourself lucky.
Last edited by Credo on Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

NTO
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Re: BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby NTO » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:31 am

Credo,
Thanks. Lots of information there. Sorry, I don't get the use for me.
I want to have my external audio appear at the input of the DAW internal/VSTi signal chain, as though it were a direct input or the output of a traditional VSTi. The intent is to sample within the DAW. Effects chain or (perhaps even) output audio is not really needed...

If you can provide a simplified example to achieve that, perhaps I can follow - though I don't use Cubase...

Credo
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:56 am

Re: BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby Credo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:26 pm

NTO wrote:Credo,
Thanks. Lots of information there. Sorry, I don't get the use for me.
I want to have my external audio appear at the input of the DAW internal/VSTi signal chain, as though it were a direct input or the output of a traditional VSTi. The intent is to sample within the DAW. Effects chain or (perhaps even) output audio is not really needed...

If you can provide a simplified example to achieve that, perhaps I can follow - though I don't use Cubase...


What main DAW are you using to host this Bidule instance?

Are you on a PC or a Mac?

Is the instrument you want a signal into Bidule from plugged into the same audio card that your DAW is using, or is it plugged into a different audio interface?

Is it mono, stereo, or perhaps more?

I do understand that you're trying to get audio from some specific 'external' source into a hosted Bidule VST. It's best if we do it through the DAW itself, without one of the hacked solutions like "reaStream or ASIO VST". Any time we by-pass the DAW's own management of any hardware audio input, it can inject all sorts of timing and synchronization issues, and on some systems even cause glitches and drop outs.

The reason Bidule doesn't have the option in plugin mode, or can't use but one audio device at a time without some sort of special aggregated driver in stand alone mode, is because it breaks all the industry rules/standards/protocols, and can lead to a VERY UNSTABLE system (if it works at all).

reaStream is easy to try, and it does not break any protocols. The only question with that option is: Can your system handle it without there being too much latency to be usable?

1. Something similar to my CuBase example would be best if it's possible in your DAW. Let us know what you have and it's possible someone can help you , with more 'step by step' instructions to achieve the end goal. Unless your host is ultra limited, there should be a way to bring the signal you desire into the DAW natively.

My point with the whole CuBase example is: If you can get your external instrument into the main Host/DAW, we can usually find a way to get it into a Bidule instance (If you even need Bidule anymore at that point). We'd load Bidule as a VST effect insert instead of as a VSTi instrument.

2. If we can't find a way to do it without a 'plugin hack' of some sort, then you'll simply have to 'experiment' with the reaStream and ASIO VST plugins on your own to see if they might work for you. If you are on Windows, then any of these options may well require installing ASIO4ALL.

3. If the instrument you are trying to bring into the mix is plugged into a separate audio card than the main DAW Host is using, then you will need to aggregate the devices into a single driver. If you are on Windows, you'll need ASIO4ALL. If you are on a Mac and you don't already know how to aggregate audio devices then read this Apple Article.

NTO
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:54 am

Re: BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby NTO » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:34 pm

My initial post is about as simple as it gets.

I am using Bidule VSTi, because i want to get onto the internal vst IN buss.

I have no trouble routing my assorted audio inputs, or using any of my VSTi's (including Bidule VSTi for other purposes), to process through my DAW, which is FL Studio.

Credo
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:56 am

Re: BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby Credo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:10 pm

NTO wrote:My initial post is about as simple as it gets.

I am using Bidule VSTi, because i want to get onto the internal vst IN buss.

I have no trouble routing my assorted audio inputs, or using any of my VSTi's (including Bidule VSTi for other purposes), to process through my DAW, which is FL Studio.


The three options I listed are pretty simple as well provided the external input is on the same sound card/device as the main DAW.

If you can get the signal onto the FL Studio mixing desk, then why do you also need it in Bidule directly from the sound card? There are a lot of reasons why very few plugins allow direct access to hardware such as an audio interface. Let the main Host DAW do it when at all possible.

As I browse various forums about FL Studio, it seems to me like there 'might' be a way to route any 'mixer track' you like almost anywhere you want it. If that's true, you wouldn't need to read any further. Just set your stuff up in the FL Mixer, and send its audio to whatever Bidule Instance you like (or any other plugin that accepts audio input) from the mixer track. If you need lots of inputs from various sources, then use one of the multiple-port versions of the Bidule plugin.

Currently Bidule's VST build is not yet VST3, so I'm not sure what (if any) DAWs can currently route audio straight to Bidule when running as a VSTi; hence...

I started with the rest of this scenario because not all DAWs can route things audio to VST2 'instrument (VSTi) plugins' so easily. I can't do it in CuBase with Bidule specifically, though I can with 'some' VST3 plugins (I.E. HALion 6 and Groove Agent 4, and of course a lot of the more modern VST3 effect plugins designed for side-chaning). So if I need a particular audio stream coming into a Bidule instance, I have to settle for running Bidule as an effect plugin (VST) in a mixer slot if I need an audio stream piped into the instance.

People with favorite VST2.x plugins still use the 'group trick' in just about every major Tracking DAW I've ever seen quite often for 'side chaining' plugins. So this is useful to learn and practice for a variety of uses besides the one in the OP with Bidule.

First try routing your external device into a mixer track, and then routing that into your VSTi version of Bidule. You 'might' get lucky and FL might have a trick up its sleeve to somehow recognize Bidule's inputs when in VSTi mode. If you can't work that out then...

If there is something you want to sample/process/etc. from inside a Bidule instance, then:

1. Route the external instrument into FL Studio so it shows up on the mixing desk.

2. Run the Bidule instance as a VST Effect in a mixer insert for that instrument (as opposed to setting it up as a VSTi instrument track or rack instrument). If you do NOT want any other plugins to process the signal before it goes into Bidule, then make Bidule the first plugin in the fader's effect chain. If you DO want the signal processed before Bidule gets it, then put it last in the chain of effect slots for that fader. At that point you can work with the audio from that instrument inside Bidule (I.E. You might load an instance of Kontakt, HALion 6, or whatever you use, and sample things, build new instruments, etc...). You can send its altered results on through this same channel's desk fader (add a Mixer bidule, then you can control when the raw instrument output vs anything else you are running in Bidule moves on through the fader's final output).

I'm pretty sure FL Studio will let you send MIDI from any MIDI track you like into the Bidule Instance. Hopefully said Bidule instance will be listed with all the other places you can point the output of MIDI Tracks to use.

If for some reason FL Studio doesn't offer a way to do get MIDI into VST slot effects, then you can use a virtual MIDI port (mentioned in earlier posts, with links on how to set them up for Mac or PC) to get MIDI through an armed MIDI track in there as well.

IF you require more audio ports with a variety of instruments coming into that instance of Bidule, then use the 16 or 32 output version of Bidule VST in an 'effect slot' of a Group mixer track on your Mixing desk and use a quad or surround sound matrix for the group, so you can pan any instrument(s) sent to the group among the extra audio ports it will provide. I.E. In the 6 channel Music style group set-up pictured a few posts back, If you wanted to route in an external piano, an old analogue organ, and a synth VSTi plugin to choose from or blend into samples in something like Kontakt, then you could use a six channel surround sound 'group'. Panning forward puts it on Bidule's 1 and 2 ports. Panning in mid way (from front to back) puts its in the next two ports, and panning full rear puts it in the last two ports. So...hosting Bidule inside a 'group insert' can give you quite a few options on what all you can route into, and out of those "Bidule Plugin" audio ports and gain quick and easy access from inside Bidule.

Another advantage to hosting Bidule in a 'group track/fader's' VST effect chain (even if you just use a standard 2 port stereo group), is that it becomes really easy to go about changing or mixing in any instruments on your mixing desk. Just route them to the group, and into Bidule they go. I.E. Route a bunch of stuff into the 'Group'. Mute the stuff you aren't sampling at the moment. Make some samples from an old electric piano, mute that, unmute your mic and sample some vocal loops, repeat, wash, rinse. You could do it through aux sends if you want to keep the mains of all the instruments routed to your main mix......

This is the simplest and best way I can personally offer right now. I'm pretty sure FL Studio can handle all this with ease. It doesn't demand special 'hacked up' plugins that can cause all sorts of problems with a DAW's internal workings. No messing with jBridge, and so on....

Short of that, if you'd like to experiment with the other options I discussed (ASIO VST, or reaStream) you'd just have to try them and see if they'll work for you. I've expressed what I know about those options in all the detail I can at this point. From here out I can't do much more other than possibly answering very specific questions about those options.

Good luck, and happy sequencing.

NTO
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:54 am

Re: BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby NTO » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:18 am

Credo wrote:[snip]
If you can get the signal onto the FL Studio mixing desk, then why do you also need it in Bidule directly from the sound card?[snip]

Not also, INSTEAD of. I wish to use a FL Studio native sampler that provides application specific encoding for data received on its VST INSTRUMENT buss.

Credo wrote:[snip]
I'm pretty sure FL Studio will let you send MIDI from any MIDI track you like into the Bidule Instance. Hopefully said Bidule instance will be listed with all the other places you can point the output of MIDI Tracks to use.
[snip]

I have/had no issues/questions regarding midi routing.

Perhaps other situations will benefit from the extensive information you have provided, and will be found here.

For me, the concise and accurate reply from the Bidule developer is sufficient.

Credo
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:56 am

Re: BiduleVST_ImpossibleAudioQuestion

Postby Credo » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:53 am

I just explained a way to use the integrated sampler bus of NI (or any other sampling plugin) in your DAW through Bidule from ANY audio source you can get your DAW to accept.

Host Bidule on a Group Bus...
I realize this image is is not made in FL, but the concept and process is quite similar....
Image

I ALSO posted 2 'alternative hacks', or work-around methods (along with the pros and cons I experienced) to route audio directly into the VSTi hosted Bidule. Really, I posted 3, if the WDM2VST site ever wakes up so people can invest in that plugin.

Perhaps you already knew how to do this, or you've tried it all and none of it works for you. If so, apologies. Others browsing the forum might find it interesting.


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