Relative midi parameters

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Montoto
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Relative midi parameters

Postby Montoto » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:33 pm

Hi guys! I have a question for you midi men and women! I havent been able to solve it myself and I am hoping that one of you can lead me to a workaround.

I have an analog console, a D&R Cinemix with fader motorized automation that I control inside of Logic Pro via a plugin developed by GSI. I host the 32 bit vst plugin (no au version) inside of Plogue Bidule and it runs on 64 bit via 32 lives. Apparently it works with midi messages. With a midiman interface connected to the console. It does run smoothly. I am happy with this workaround.

The thing is I use four buses of the console as my main buses, and I like them to be prefectly aligned between left and right channels. To do so, instead of moving them with my hand, I control those faders from a Novation Nocturn that I have, and assign the parameters inside Plogue Bidule to have one knob of the Nocturn control left and right bus 1, and so on. So when I move the knob the faders move perfecty stereo matched. This works well.

I am trying to achieve having one of the Nocturns infinite knobs to control the relative values of the four main buses at once. So when I move the knob, the eight mono faders of the buses move simultaneously, but respecting their relative volumes. If bus A is at zero db, and bus B is at -10db i want to keep that relationship between them. For now all I have managed to do is to have one knob controlling the four buses, but as soon as I move it they all go to the same absolute position. I want to be able to move them up and down simultaneously to hit the main stereo bus harder or softer with one knob but changing only their relative values.

Anyone knows how I could achieve this?!! I have tried from automap too, by selecting increment decrement value from those Nocturn knobs. The assignment doesnt work.

I have fiddled around with Bidule too and I know there must be a way to do it, but I just can figure it out

Thanks so much and kindest regards from Madrid.

Diego.

DaveDraper
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby DaveDraper » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:09 am

Without knowing how you actually go about routing/controlling values in bidule, or implementing MIDI from parameter values, a 'Parameter Modulator (Relative)' springs to mind as a possibility. Having said that, I've only used the absolute parameter modulator myself, and that a bit of fiddling to get the modulator ranges AND the modulated range right; I'd guess the same detailed attention would apply to the relative version (or versions if you need several of them).
Am I heading in the right direstion at all?
Dave Draper

DaveDraper
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby DaveDraper » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:12 am

edit: ......the absolute parameter modulator myself, and that ..NEEDS....a bit of fiddling..........
Dave

jersmi
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby jersmi » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:31 pm

I agree -- try relative parameter modulation, maybe as simple as linking one rel mod to many params. Rel mod in Bidule works by sending a +/- increment. Building it could take a few building blocks. What does your midi data look like, for ex. in a Bidule midi monitor?

I have had some success converting midi to trigger an increment value for the (outgoing) rel param mod. A useful bidule in this case would be (Building Blocks > Math >) Change. It can tell you if your midi knob is incrementing or decrementing by comparing current/previous sample and outputting 1 for positive increment, -1 for negative, 0 for no change (which you can then multiply by some increment value to send to rel mod). Hope this makes sense.

For example, say your knob is a midi CC. In this case, use a Building Blocks > MIDI > CC Extractor, connect second output to a Change. Multiply by some increment value (using a Constant bidule, for example). If you are using dB, not sure in your case, you might need to convert to linear (using for ex., the Unit Converter) before you connect to a rel mod.

Montoto
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby Montoto » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:57 am

Thanks a lot guys! I´ve already fiddled around with the relative parameter modulator with no luck. But I will follow your tips and report back!! Thanks a lot again.

KR.

Diego.

jersmi
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby jersmi » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:14 pm

Hi Diego -- willing to help, what does your controller send to Bidule (using one of Bidule's midi monitors)?

Montoto
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby Montoto » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:29 pm

jersmi wrote:Hi Diego -- willing to help, what does your controller send to Bidule (using one of Bidule's midi monitors)?



Hi Jersmi! Sorry, I´ve been a bit disconnected from this problem... Thanks a lot for your help!

The thing is I haven't got much knowledge on Plogue Bidule. I am using a Novation Nocturn as a Midi controller. I can control any plugin inside Logic Pro X. When I open Plogue (in MFX plugin mode) I insert the VST instrument there. The plugin called GSI Cinemix basically has a lot of faders that connect to an analog automated console) The plugin works well, I assign a lot of Bidule parameters to the faders and mutes that the plugin has and can write and read the automation from that track to the console and back inside Logic. That´s why I use Plogue in the first place. So I can use a VST instrument inside Logic Pro. Then next challenge comes, and that is having a VCA fader that controls many faders on the console. In the original MSDOS program I think the software that came with the console could do that. Use any fader of the console as a VCA. I would be happy to use one spare fader of the console to do this task or even a midi fader from an external controller, as I am trying now.

So it would be easy if I could have a controller that sent midi values in relative mode I think. That is, I want the faders in the console to move proportionally to their actual positions, thus conserving their respective gain balance. I could alternatively route them to a bus in the console and have them in a stereo bus with two faders only, and automate that. But that is a different process really. I need the VCA fader.

Inside Plogue I want to have the same relative parameter control lets say eight faders that I want in that group. When I do that in the way I am used to (inside the Parameters menu, and linking Bidule Plugin 0 parameter 1, for example, to many faders from the Cinemix plugin) they all move at the same time but they all go to the same gain position.

So I have inserted a Midi Monitor as you told me inside Plogue. But I can't see any activity when I move the Nocturn knob. I have inserted inside Plogue some Midi inputs as well (Automap Logic Mixer, Automap Propellerhead...) and connected them via the virtual cables to the midi monitor but only this shows up: Tick BO ST D1 D2 CH Event

I don´t know how I am supposed to do what you tell me. Can you please explain? Do I have to link the Midi Monitors in the Parameters menu to the midi inputs?

Thanks a lot.

KR.

Montoto
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby Montoto » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:38 pm

I can see inside Logic Pro that the Novation Nocturn´s knob is sending a 1 33 0-127 message as I work it.

NTO
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby NTO » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:51 pm

Hey Guys!
Don't mean to jump in the middle of this but as a midi geek I'm liking this plug!

For ref there's a quick video here:
https://www.screencast.com/t/kogVhNMYPnyr

I'm using the Bidule VSTi inside my DAW w/'virtual port' connections. The DAW places the data to the plug via its vst buss (faders moving) and the plug is placing data to the buss (Bidule's monitor screen),

I get virtual port lockout(contention) in Bidule stand-alone, so this was the first demo I could get...

NTO
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby NTO » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:26 pm

Oh yeah! Good fun!

I put the CineMix in another instance, then I can use the virtual ports in the stand alone.

If I've missed the wish, it won't be the first time :roll: , but here I set a level on two faders, then modify both faders holding their relative positions.
Range checking and control left to the actual implementation... :lol:

Used the bulk CC gen for simplicity and just a couple controlled.

https://www.screencast.com/t/EV9gxNeah

jersmi
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Location: Oakland, California

Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby jersmi » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:20 am

Montoto wrote:I can see inside Logic Pro that the Novation Nocturn´s knob is sending a 1 33 0-127 message as I work it.

So I'm guessing this is a CC message? If your controller has relative knobs, you'll have to figure out what rel CC type.

In order to see incoming midi in Bidule, you need to load your Novation Nocturn device to the layout board from the midi devices menu and connect that output to a midi monitor. This should show the stream in the monitor window of all incoming midi from that device.

Here's a hacked together layout, maybe something.
Attachments
relMod_1to8.bidule
(122.79 KiB) Downloaded 4 times

jersmi
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:18 pm
Location: Oakland, California

Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby jersmi » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:26 am

NTO beat me to it -- using CineMix sounds more approachable than my first go using built in bidules, which might take a lot more work to make it useful.... anyway, maybe something to learn from my feeble attempt. Cool, NTO!

NTO
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby NTO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:58 pm

I'm thinking this is the rest of the wish - using a midi controller.
Still thinking about how I will segment the elements of gross functionality. :roll: This is a proof of concept demo. Note I place the 'master' fader at 0, rather than its default max. Could start at 64 for plus/minus individual faders...
The bidule is only for four faders at fixed positions (top row, 1-4), but the concept is there for personalized implementations.

Geek speak: I am very happy to have been intro'd to this plug! :D

Video
https://www.screencast.com/t/PFPwsvcK

OOOOPS!! :oops:
Hadn't link the master fader display on vst through in video. Fixed in included bidule, but no new vid. :wink:
17Jan_CineMixOffsetExperiment2.bidule
(105.78 KiB) Downloaded 3 times

Montoto
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Location: Valdemorillo, Spain.
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby Montoto » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:49 pm

NTO wrote:I'm thinking this is the rest of the wish - using a midi controller.
Still thinking about how I will segment the elements of gross functionality. :roll: This is a proof of concept demo. Note I place the 'master' fader at 0, rather than its default max. Could start at 64 for plus/minus individual faders...
The bidule is only for four faders at fixed positions (top row, 1-4), but the concept is there for personalized implementations.

Geek speak: I am very happy to have been intro'd to this plug! :D

Video
https://www.screencast.com/t/PFPwsvcK

OOOOPS!! :oops:
Hadn't link the master fader display on vst through in video. Fixed in included bidule, but no new vid. :wink:
17Jan_CineMixOffsetExperiment2.bidule



So it looks like you made it work! Thanks a lot! You rock!

I have imported your bidule session to my Bidule plugin but I don´t understand it very well. It hasn´t opened the Cinemix plugin or at least I can´t see it anywhere. I suppose I have to put my midi controller insted of your taktile 49, and the part of the master fader from the cinemix plugin I don´t understand it. I don´t wan´t to do anything with it in fact. How does it interact with all the setup?

Montoto
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:45 pm
Location: Valdemorillo, Spain.
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Re: Relative midi parameters

Postby Montoto » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:51 pm

Could you explain what you did step by step so I can understand it better please?!

Thanks!!


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