Looking for Bidule groups (bgrp) maintainer(s)

Post your groups/layouts here

Moderators: davidv, seb@plogue

jersmi
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Location: Oakland, California

Postby jersmi » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:25 pm

mdk wrote:If you use a 'comment' module with a name of README, that will appear as the group description in the catalog. If the module doesnt exist and you add a description in the manager app, it will add the module for you.
The catalog also requires an email address for the creator, so to add that you just add a seperate line at the end of the comment with

CONTACT:me@mine.com

and that should be it.

As jersmi says, even if you dont want to generate a catalog you can still use it to organise your own groups via the tree control on the right.
This shows you how the groups appear in the bidule palette and you can move groups around, create new folders etc..

At the moment its just a basic proof of concept, it works, but it might damage your data so always keep backups. I dont get a lot of free time for fun stuff like this so any help is appreciated..bug reports, suggestions..of course more coders would be great :)

the comment README feature i think is super cool, and will allow the Remote Catalog to have good descriptions. also this seems to point the way to other possibilities like keyword search, etc., right? also, using the app might be a good way of adding a comment with line breaks, since i cannot figure out how to add line breaks to the Comment bidule within PB...

also, using the tree (right column) in the app for organizing groups seems to be the buggiest part for me right now-- quickly develops error messages and related to data loss.

mdk
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Location: Skopje, Macedonia

Postby mdk » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:01 am

yeah, i was thinking the same thing with keywords so we could do grouping, searching and other fancy things..

as for the tree, thats my main problem with the framework, i think it is actually quite buggy, on top of which my code probably has bugs (well, all code generally has bugs but thats another discussion)

when i get time i'll try the latest version of the framework and see if that is any better. if its not then we can think of another solution for managing the display path until it does work.

sondod
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Postby sondod » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:30 pm

Still haven't had a chance to check the source yet, but I was thinking why the need for ruby. seems to me this could easily be managed with xml and a simple file structure. also i'm not sure i understand how data is being lost. when messing around in the interface you shouldn't actually be messing with any data in the bgrps themselves just the xml data. if moving things around in the interface is moving the actual groups and rewriting them, we should consider a different approach.

mdk
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Skopje, Macedonia

Postby mdk » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:29 pm

sondod wrote:Still haven't had a chance to check the source yet, but I was thinking why the need for ruby. seems to me this could easily be managed with xml and a simple file structure. also i'm not sure i understand how data is being lost. when messing around in the interface you shouldn't actually be messing with any data in the bgrps themselves just the xml data. if moving things around in the interface is moving the actual groups and rewriting them, we should consider a different approach.


Why ruby or php? well, my vision for the potential of the app is to head towards something similar to the reaktor user library. That really helps drive the reaktor community and gives a place where everyone can upload and download all sorts of instruments, modules etc.
Of course the groups and catalog files could just be uploaded via ftp and left at that, but personally i dont like ftp and i dont want to expose my server that way, so I would prefer to build a server app on the front to handle submissions and then you can get all the nice extras like searching for groups by keywords, by author, user comments, rating etc..
That kind of thing isnt hard to implement, it just takes time (which unfortunately is my most precious commodity). But if we start slowly with the right infrastructure it can be built incrementally.

As for messing with the bgrp files, well they are xml data. There are reasons for manipulating them :)

1. To extract / insert the information required for the catalog file such as descriptions, email addresses
2. To manage the display path for the bidule palette.

Of course we could just build a version which doesnt do any bgrp modifications, just reads what there is and generates a catalog file, but I think this would take a lot more time to maintain as you would need to switch between bidule and the app all the time. So I think its easier to manage it all in one place.

At the moment the app is just a prototype and is built using beta tools and a beta framework, but I wanted to get it out to everyone early so we can get feedback about what people think and find people who could possibly contribute and build a solid, useful application to make using bidule much more productive.

anyway, at this point nothing is set in stone and the code is available to take and do with as you please...not that there is much of it, but its there ;)

jersmi
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Location: Oakland, California

Postby jersmi » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:21 pm

imho, getting a taste for what's possible with this little app and seeing reaktor's user library makes me really excited to wait a bit and try to see if this thing can go forward. we have waited this long for the catalog, so why not try to do something really cool with it.

i am wondering about thoughts on integrating it within Plogue Bidule. would it now require, say, another section in the forum, like the reaktor user library? would this app be separate altogether from the Group Manager? would we use both?

sondod
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Postby sondod » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:13 pm

will this be a separate application or integrated into bidule?

i kind of like the idea of it being a separate application because i'd rather the guys focus on the core of bidule. plus there are many more things that can be done outside of bidule, inside the application.

some thoughts:

* shouldn't there only be one public catalog.xml being the one that has all of the groups together? you could update your personal catalog.xml file but it should neveer be uploaded. instead you would just be passing that node to the public file.

* the editing of bgrps should only happen locally. bgrps uploaded to the server should be read only.

* if this were built out in air fully there's a lot of potential for what it could include. potentially you could email group owners from the app. there could be a demo portion which held bgrps in interim states, including a simple chat so that collaborators could pass groups back and forth. i'm not sure but potentially this could also hold plugins and the such i imagine.

at any rate i think it'd be a great project to work on. but i think we need to determine the full scope before going too much further.

jersmi
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:18 pm
Location: Oakland, California

Postby jersmi » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:07 pm

we need to determine the full scope before going too much further

these are the questions i was asking as well. i think it is an exciting idea to have another app outside of bidule. are there any reasons not to do this? i wonder if we could get Plogue to give an opinion on this. maybe there are issues on their side we need to know about.

i will be a happy guinea pig and willing to do anything i can to make it go. i already have a somewhat organized batch of groups from various users... :)

sondod
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Postby sondod » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:48 pm

can we get the plogue guys in on the discussion.

seb@plogue
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Postby seb@plogue » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:11 pm

I am for facilitating the publishing/sharing of groups/layouts.

The only thing I'm afraid of is having to install/maintain/manage/monitor yet another bunch of things on the webserver.

jersmi
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Location: Oakland, California

Postby jersmi » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:43 pm

seb@plogue wrote:I am for facilitating the publishing/sharing of groups/layouts.

The only thing I'm afraid of is having to install/maintain/manage/monitor yet another bunch of things on the webserver.

So, Seb, I am still working under the premise that you only need to become active in this after we have something working, mostly for your approval and to voice any concerns re: integration with PB. I agree with sondod that we should keep your hands out of it as much as possible so you can focus your talents on PB dev. The way i see it, you only need to be involved when we are prepared to present a working model.

Am i being idealistic? In general, are you guys okay with another little app being developed as a front end for bidule users?

I'm still saying i would be happy to dedicate time and energy for the sake of the smooth operation/organization of the catalog. I just am not qualified to do the coding.

That's why it is so great to see this becoming a group effort. :)

seb@plogue
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Postby seb@plogue » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:50 am

Am i being idealistic? In general, are you guys okay with another little app being developed as a front end for bidule users?


Until someone charges money for that, I don't see a problem.

sondod
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:13 pm

Postby sondod » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:26 pm

Sounds like a go for me. So moving forward:

* We need server space for testing. I'm perfectly willing to offer mine up if there's no other solution.

* Are we going to work from what MDK has or use that as a proof of concept and start from scratch. I'm more inclined to start from scratch as I have the AIR compiler from Flash and feel comfortable with the scope of the project working in Flash for the sake of time. To go into Fles requires more experimentation on my part and could increase the development time.

* I think once we decide on the platform there should be a few stages of development.

- Develop a bgrp editor which will go in and edit all of the metadata for bgrps safely on your local machine.
- Develop a server library which stores the global catalog file and can add or remove bgrps.

These primary functions should be first. From them we could move on to:

- Develop a collaboration utility for sharing and communicating about the development of new bgrps.

What say you all?

jersmi
Posts: 3412
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:18 pm
Location: Oakland, California

Postby jersmi » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:39 pm

sondod wrote:Sounds like a go for me. So moving forward:

first off, thank you. :D i think moving forward is most important. now to get clear on specifics.
* We need server space for testing. I'm perfectly willing to offer mine up if there's no other solution.

yours for your own convenience. you could use mine if you need. Plogue might offer you some, but i think it best to keep going without their help if possible-- like you said.
* Are we going to work from what MDK has or use that as a proof of concept and start from scratch. I'm more inclined to start from scratch as I have the AIR compiler from Flash and feel comfortable with the scope of the project working in Flash for the sake of time. To go into Fles requires more experimentation on my part and could increase the development time.

here's where at first i said, oh, i don't know-- mdk was so generous getting this thing going and i thought it a shame to let his hard work go. but like i said, moving forward is most important for me. so i choose to view mdk's hard work as an important first part of the process and let's move on.

More points:
- i think it is a good idea to be working in an environment you know. i think mdk was trying some new things-- good for him!-- but i would like things to be working and stable. waiting for new, more stable builds of Flex would seem to be counter-productive-- but once again, i may not know enough...
- you, sondod, appear to have the time and desire to work on this. very important!
- mdk's hard work will not go to waste. his concepts/infrastructure are sound, i think.

* I think once we decide on the platform there should be a few stages of development.
great. first priority for me is still getting the first batch together for the community. this probably involves most conceivable stages anyway.

- Develop a bgrp editor which will go in and edit all of the metadata for bgrps safely on your local machine.

offering this to users i think could be part 2 of the project. Part 1 could be developing this stage with the goal to focus on organizing the Plogue sponsored Remote Catalog and creating the global catalog. How do you view bidule's Group Manager feature in its present state being used?

- Develop a server library which stores the global catalog file and can add or remove bgrps.
Priority number one, i think. Here's where features such as keyword search, categories, etc. get developed, right?
These primary functions should be first. From them we could move on to:

- Develop a collaboration utility for sharing and communicating about the development of new bgrps.
i do think reaktor's user library is a good thing to think about. it appears well-organized, efficient and simple. thinking about our needs as bidule users, what would our Remote Catalog page look like? I personally could stand something much more bare bones. Should we ask Plogue for a "Community" or "Remote Catalog" page on their site? Or should we keep it more like the Group Manager feature already?

What say you all?
thank you, thank you, thank you....

mdk
Posts: 153
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Location: Skopje, Macedonia

Postby mdk » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:43 am

good to see this is taking off.

i also have server space im happy to offer and can run the usual array of stuff, php4 / php5, ruby on rails, subdomains, domain hosting, mailing lists etc..

as for using my code or starting from scratch, there isnt really a lot of code in my app anyway so if its easier for you to make a new project then go ahead :)

Just note that some of the code isnt flex, its just generic AS3 model classes to represent groups and the catalog so you can use that or just take notes from it.

sondod
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Postby sondod » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:31 am

hey,

you guys want to pm me with email addresses.


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